The 20 Year Overnight Success: Interview with Michael Wallace

Wolves_ebook smallerI have an interview today with Michael Wallace, an author who has sold over 400,000 e-books since he started self-publishing back in January 2011.

Michael patiently took the time over several days to answer my questions about writing, marketing, the craft, and the business. Given the length of the interview, and because I didn’t want to cut any of the great answers he gave, I’m posting this over two days.

The second part will go live at the same time tomorrow: 5pm GMT/Noon Eastern.

When I started self-publishing a couple of years ago, you were one of those guys already doing well that everyone was watching closely.

I think you uploaded your first in January of that year, and, if memory serves me right, The Righteous – your thriller set in a polygamist compound in the Utah desert – launched straight into the Top 100 of the Kindle Store and has sold well ever since. Are you one of these classic “overnight” success stories with ten years of hard work behind it?

Make it twenty years and that’s about right. The Righteous was my ninth completed novel. Toss in over a hundred short stories and maybe a thousand rejection letters and you start to get a picture of how persistent I was. Or maybe stubborn is the right word. I was not able to give up even in the face of overwhelming indifference on behalf of the publishing industry.

righteous newThe Righteous had gone out on submission a couple of years earlier, and my agent kept getting rejections that were some variation of, “I loved this book and couldn’t put it down, but what’s the audience for a thriller set in a polygamist cult?” When I self-published, I was very happy to discover that there was in fact an audience.

I believe that luck has a lot to do with success as a writer, and there’s no question that I got some lucky breaks when I put The Righteous and a few of my other books up for sale on KDP. I was able to interact with readers on the Amazon forum before the policies changed and gave away several hundred copies of my novels in return for honest reviews. As the books started getting visibility, a couple of big review sites, including Pixel of Ink, gave me important mentions.

The Amazon algorithms at the time were very favorable and both The Righteous and Implant got swept up in an almost miraculous updraft. The Righteous reached as high as #20 in the overall store as an indie book. I was in the wave of 99¢ authors finding success at that time, and the store wasn’t as big as it is now, so I wasn’t getting rich, but it was real money. In addition, I started to get queries from agents and publishers expressing interest in The Righteous. As someone who had been struggling to get noticed for so many years, this was perhaps the strangest thing of all.

implantOf course, that was only the beginning of the story. You ended up writing a bunch of sequels to The Righteous, then sold that series to Amazon’s then-new imprint, Thomas & Mercer – a deal announced in August 2011 on a blog not too far from here. Amazon cranked up their famed marketing machine, and, at one point, the only (e)book selling more was The Hunger Games.

That was an exciting time. The first three books of the series hit the Wall Street Journal Top 10 in the same week. My books were #2, 3, and 4 in the overall Kindle store, and the only reason they didn’t hit #1 was because it was the weekend of the opening of the first Hunger Games movie.

On the one hand it feels like a great accomplishment, but on the other I recognize I was fortunate enough to have a huge Amazon campaign behind it. When Amazon wants to give a book visibility, they can do so in a way that is stunning to indie and trad published authors alike.

It was a risk signing over my rights when the books were selling so well on their own, but Thomas & Mercer has more than proved their worth over the past couple of years. In addition, they’re just really nice people who treat their authors extremely well.

mightystrongThey do seem to roll out the red carpet for their authors. I’m curious about something though. Do you do anything to push the Thomas & Mercer books, or do you leave that in the hands of Amazon?

I don’t have the ability to change the price, so in general I am relying on the T&M promotion. But these are also my best-selling books by far, so a lot of my interactions with readers are to discuss The Righteous. I’m getting ready to deliver book #7 of the series in a couple of weeks (#6 is done and awaiting a February publication date), with one more book to complete the Thomas & Mercer contract. I suspect that when I look back in another twenty years, I will consider the eight books of the series to be my major accomplishment, not just of my career, but of my life.

You said the thrillers are your biggest sellers – not too surprising given the size of the genre (and the helping hand from Amazon). But you write all sorts of stuff: kids books, fantasy, historical fiction, and a little science fiction too. Aside from whatever deadlines you have with Amazon, how do you choose the next project? You obviously like writing in several different genres, so I’m sure that tickles something creatively, but do commercial considerations come into play too?

I need to mix things up to avoid burnout. Ideally, I’d write four books a year, maybe one historical thriller, one contemporary stand-alone thriller, a fantasy novel, and then something for an ongoing series. Practically speaking, I haven’t yet managed more than three books in a year, which means I shuffle stuff around. I choose the project depending on a mix of what I think is in demand, what I need to deliver for contract, and what ideas won’t leave me alone.

stateofsiegeOne of the best things about being an indie writer is that nobody can tell you no. Well, they can, and they do, but it’s easy enough to thumb your nose and do it anyway. Sometimes they’re right. I was convinced State of Siege was brilliant when I was writing it. Total sales are less than a tenth that of my most successful indie thriller, The Devil’s Deep.

But mostly, I’ve found that if I love an idea there are at least a few thousand readers out there who will love it too.

Your new release is fresh territory again. The Wolves of Paris just came out the other day, and it seems to draw together aspects of a few different genres you enjoy writing in. Obviously it has the historical setting of Paris in 1450, but it’s a thriller… with werewolves! (That had me one-clicking in about 2 seconds, btw.)  Can you tell us a little about what attracted you to the idea, and whether a cross-genre novel like this poses any specific challenges when writing it?

In the winter of 1450, a starving pack of wolves infiltrated the city walls of Paris and killed forty people before they were destroyed by an angry mob on the steps of Notre Dame. That is about all that is known of the incident, but as soon as I read about it I knew I had to turn it into a novel.

I’m excited about The Wolves of Paris. Paris in 1450 is a fantastic playground for a fevered imagination, and the research was amazing and fun. The book itself is some of my favorite writing ever. It’s bloody, action-packed, and has a couple of the most suspenseful scenes I’ve ever written.

I think it’s my strongest work, so I’m hopeful it will get a great reception. But yes, it’s a little bit different. I write everything like a suspense novel, drawing out tense scenes and shifting viewpoints for maximum page-turning potential. Still, my main characters are traders from Renaissance Florence, traveling to Paris when it was still a dark corner of the late medieval period. It makes for a fascinating background, but I’m also hoping my core readers will take a chance on a very different setting.

(I should point out quickly The Wolves of Paris is being launched at the discounted price of 99c, so anyone thinking of purchasing should grab it now before the price goes up in a few days.)

In marketing terms, does breaking genre boundaries make promoting the book more challenging, or does it expand your potential audience?

vipersBoth are true. On the one hand, I’m constantly struggling to get my existing readers to give my newest project a try. On the other, if you look at my World War II thrillers on Amazon, you can see that they’re associated in the store with a lot of other period stuff. My fantasy novel pages are stuffed with recommendations for other fantasies. My Righteous series books show a lot of other Thomas & Mercer thrillers. That shows that my overall writing is drawing a diverse set of readers.

Those same recommendation pages on Amazon also show a lot of crossover in my readership, but it’s not yet where I’d like it to be. The key is to write so consistently well that a reader knows that if he enjoys any one book of mine he’s likely to enjoy anything I write.

Are you finding that readers generally stick to what they like (and you have to build a new audience in each genre)?

My largest group of readers are the followers of the Righteous series. They’re dying to know what happens next in Blister Creek, Utah, but not so interested in trying anything else.

Then I have the group who will read only my fantasy novels. They’re anxious for the next Dark Citadel books, but don’t seem to branch out into other things. Once or twice I’ve nudged one of these readers with a free book from my thriller list, but this has had mixed results, to say the least. This is a small, but fierce group of readers. A similar, but more fluid group of readers will read my historical thrillers or any of my contemporary thrillers except the Righteous. The polygamists creep them out.

Finally, there are those who read anything I write. For whatever reason, my writing style, my plotting, and my characters appeal to them, no matter the genre. Obviously, this is where I want all my readers to end up eventually, and this group does get a fair number of converts from the other categories.

citadelBack to the Amazon deal for a moment. When it was announced, it was big news. I think you were one of the first wave of self-publishers to get scooped up by Thomas & Mercer, along with people like Joe Konrath, Barry Eisler, Traci Hohenstein, J Carson Black, and Scott Nicholson. And, like most of them, you’re still self-publishing other work.

They all seem pretty happy with how the Amazon Publishing experience has gone. I know you’re of a similar opinion, so I’ll ask you the same question I would ask them: if Amazon made an offer tomorrow, would you sign everything over to them? Or are you happier spreading your bets, so to speak?

That’s a great question, and I’m not sure I know the answer to that. There was a time when I considered doing that very thing, when Thomas & Mercer was making noises about acquiring my entire backlist. I hemmed and hawed and by the time I was interested in signing over at least some of it, they’d filled out their list of back titles and were no longer moving in that direction.

The truth is, self-publishing is fun. I love to have full control over covers and price and everything else involved in selling a book. It’s also fun to see sales in real time, to experiment with different promos, and to get those monthly account deposits.

But self-publishing is also more work, and the editorial process with traditional publishing is still superior to almost anything an indie writer can manage. Writing for a publisher gives a feeling of stability, which may or may not be illusory.

Many successful self-publishers say they wouldn’t take a publishing deal at all. Others say it’s either Amazon Publishing or self-publishing. Lots say they would sell subsidiary rights (print, audio, foreign etc.). And then some are totally open to anything, depending on the deal. Where do you fall?

I would absolutely take a deal with a NY publisher if the terms were good enough and the deal was non-exclusive. I wouldn’t limit my ability to keep working on side projects. This is one way in which Thomas & Mercer has been quite visionary. They recognize, correctly, that my doing other books will only help them sell more copies of The Righteous.

A traditional deal (and I’m including Amazon imprints in that) is like investing money in bonds when the stock market is booming, or vice versa. I want to be diversified, even at the potential of losing bigger money elsewhere.

devilsdeep  newMy only real goal is to continue making a living as a writer. For twenty years I dreamed about how great it would be to be a full-time professional writer. The reality is, it’s even better than I imagined. I’ve got a good thing going and I want to be flexible enough to make sure that keeps happening.

I guess one of the advantages with going with a publisher is that they will fully exploit all those subsidiary rights – something that might be difficult or expensive for indies to do on their own, or where we might struggle to reach readers. Obviously, Thomas & Mercer put out print editions of your books, but it also does audio editions through Audible, CD versions, and MP3 downloads of those titles.

Is there much sales action in these formats? I know you’ve done some paperback editions of your self-published stuff, but have you been tempted to do audio editions? Or is the market not quite there yet?

Right now, T&M isn’t selling much of anything for me except for e-books. But they sell a lot of those. Sometimes huge amounts. I’ve heard talk that they’ll be working those other formats harder in the future, but there are a lot of barriers, most notably that other bookstores see Amazon as the enemy and resist carrying their titles.

I would like to do audio of my self-published titles but I simply haven’t got around to it yet. I’m somewhat dissuaded by how poorly my paperbacks sell. I know that some indie writers do really well in paper, but mine have abysmal sales.

Moving on, I have a confession. I’ve been dropping your name a lot lately. I sometimes  get asked to speak at things or teach workshops and a topic that always comes up is author platform. Some writers break out in a cold sweat at the idea of joining Twitter, or posting about their lunch on Facebook, or wonder when they are going to write if they are blogging every day.

To reassure them, I always give the example of Michael Wallace. You have sold over 400,000 books now, without having a huge author platform. As far as I know, you don’t blog that regularly and aren’t even on Twitter. So it doesn’t seem to be a necessary condition for success. Or, at least, it wasn’t for your success.

Ah, so you are using me as an example of a lazy slacker who is somehow, mysteriously successful in spite of doing everything wrong. I feel that way sometimes when I look at the huge social media presence some writers manage. It is daunting to look at everything that can, and maybe should be, done. Mostly, I’d rather do nothing than do it badly.

wickedHaving said that, there are several ways I do interact socially. I maintain a website, collect a new release mailing list, and hang out on Kindleboards and other author sites to talk about marketing. I also experiment with my prices and run regular ads.

But no, I’m not a big blogger, I don’t interact much on Goodreads, and I am not on The Twitter, as my mother would say. It’s mainly a question of time. Even apart from the writing, which is where most of my efforts need to go, I need to spend my effort finding good covers, researching the next book, and learning more about the craft.

The reason I asked that question is that when I look back over the last couple of years, I spent too much time platform building, and not enough time putting out new fiction. I didn’t plan it that way, but I guess I wasn’t strict enough with myself about jealously guarding that writing time. I’ve switched focus this year, and feel a lot better for it.

One thing you did have – right from the start, if I remember right – was a lot of titles, and you’ve managed to keep up an impressive rate of releasing new books. I think you have 15 or 16 novels up on Amazon now, plus some shorter stuff and a couple of box sets. What’s your secret? Is it as simple as putting your ass in the chair every day, even when you don’t feel like it? How do you ensure all the other stuff doesn’t intrude on your writing time?

The truth is, I don’t feel particularly productive. I feel lazy, in fact. I have a hard time working for more than a couple of hours at a stretch on first draft material. I take too much time off between books, and my redrafts and edits progress at a sluggish pace. I see some writers producing ten books a year or writing first drafts in a single weekend and I feel like a sluggard.

bearsWhat I am good at is consistency. I’m good at making a calendar and sticking to it. I’m good at setting a goal (typically, 1,500 to 2,500 words per day, depending on the book) and then holding to it every single day. When working on a first draft, I will write on Christmas, on my birthday, and if I’m sick. I can’t sit down to write a book–it’s too big a project–but I can hold myself to a certain word count every single day until a book magically appears a few weeks later. If I don’t follow this regimen, if I take a couple of days off, the book will go cold and it will be hard to pick up again.

I’m also a big believer in setting realistic, measurable goals. Make your goals something not dependent on other people. A goal such as “sell 100,000 books this year” is really just a wish. A goal “write three books this year” can be accomplished no matter what else anyone does.

And that’s my goal right now, to produce three new books every year. It’s a solid pace that feels sustainable over the long run. I do occasionally feel burnout approaching, but a trip or a few days of nothing but reading will generally recharge my batteries. This is my third year at that speed; we’ll see how I’m doing in another five.

* * *

Wolves_ebook smallerI’m pretty sure Michael Wallace will be doing just fine. But to hear his plans for the future, his thoughts on craft, the kind of marketing he finds most effective, and his advice to new writers, tune in tomorrow for Part II (5pm GMT/Noon Eastern).

Don’t forget to grab your copy of The Wolves of Paris at the special launch price of 99c. Amazon UK customers can get it here, and Nook owners here. If you have any questions, stick ’em in the comments, and I’ll see you tomorrow!

David Gaughran

David Gaughran

Born in Ireland, he now lives in a little fishing village in Portugal, although this hasn’t increased the time spent outside. He writes novels under another name, has helped thousands of authors build a readership with his books, blogs, workshops, and courses, and has created marketing campaigns for some of the biggest self-publishers on the planet. Friend to all dogs.

27 Replies to “The 20 Year Overnight Success: Interview with Michael Wallace”

  1. Reblogged this on Bowl of Rice and commented:
    Very interesting interview with indie writer and author Michael Wallace, hosted by David Gaughran, about Wallace’s success as an independent author who has released several novels through the Amazon e-book services. This is an inspiring interview because it exposes the truth in being an independent writer- it takes a lot of work to maintain a well-structured fan base but the hard work does pay off if you do it correctly with a little bit of luck. This interview along with others with Michael Wallace are full of knowledgeable information about being an independent writer, the marketing and industry behind it. If you are a striving artist like myself who is open minded to being involved with many genre’s of writing (like Michael Wallace) or even if your a writer in general- you may find this interview influential, knowledgeable and interesting.

  2. I’m gonna take away his advice on not sitting down and writing a book… But writing a certain amount of words, or a scene, that feels much more manageable.

  3. I enjoyed hearing Michael Wallace tell his story – very inspiring. “I’d rather do nothing than do it badly” is a good reminder to those of us trying to figure out how best to use social media. I blog, tweet and FB – and don’t think I can manage anymore unless I can find some support staff who are willing to work for free!

  4. Great interview! Very informative. Very positive. Am going to pass it along to my circle of writers. Have recently changed my writing habits and quotas. Am making a concerted effort at learning the art of the short story. I realize that they’re mainly desired by journals and touted in college courses, but I feel like it’s a rite of passage for me, before getting my novels published. Picked up a copy of “The Wolves of Paris,” and it sounds like something I’d devour ;). (love historical settings!) Thank you for sharing, David!

  5. Great Interview David. I particularly like the goal setting ideas;word count versus book sales. It obviously works for Michael Wallace who is a beacon for all aspiring Indie writers.I think every writer needs to firmly create his or her routine which will become immune to all the distractions of everyday life. Thanks again D.G looking forward to today’s episode.

  6. Thanks for the interview, David, and good to meet you Michael. I just bought a copy of The Wolves of Paris. I love how consistency is so important for productivity. It seems so obvious, but Time has a way of running away from you and you don’t always realize it until it’s too late or late enough to induce panic (where I’m at). Consistency snuffs that. Thanks again, guys, and I hope your hard-earned luck continues, Michael.

  7. Great stories, great covers, talent, persistence and deserved success – without the open path that is self-publishing today, readers would have missed out on these wonderful stories from Michael Wallace all because publishers lack the necessary vision.

  8. Thanks so much for interviewing Michael! I tend to stay away from books with religious themes but I’m a huge fan of his Righteous Series and recommend it regularly. It was no surprise to me when he got the T&M contract. Really excited to read this new historial from Michael!

  9. David, thanks for a great interview. I DLed my copy of ‘Wolves’ yesterday, and can’t wait to get to it. Michael is a true gentleman. When I first started self publishing in 2011, I knew absolutely nothing about the process, and I contacted Michael asking for advice on getting reviews, doubtful I’d get a response. Not only did I get a prompt and extremely helpful response, but he’s been more than generous with help and advice at various times since. His success is well-deserved, and it couldn’t have happened to a nicer (or more talented) guy.

  10. I agree wholeheartedly. Success is partly gained from luck, but mostly from hard work. Consistency is key, writing daily until the first draft is finished. I don’t take days off when I’m working on a book unless I’m craptastically sick, and I write on weekends, holidays, birthdays. I keep to a daily word goal and find that 4K or so works for me to keep the momentum going. (I say, completely procrastinating online when I’ve just started a new book today. But hey, I’m already halfway to my writing goal for the day at 10:40am, so I’m allowed to browse for a bit.)

    I’ve been very lucky that my readers are open to cross-reading between my different series, but my books are all in the same paranormal mystery/romance genre. Kudos to Michael for branching out to other genres to avoid burnout! I see myself doing that some day.

  11. Thank you for sharing this. It is inspiration to other indie writers and authors.

    I will be checking out some of Michael’s books. I totally agree about the goal setting. It has to be something you have control over.

    Thanks David!

  12. Yes I agree great interview . It’s encouraging for a new author because persistence paid off and he didn’t have a huge blog or social media following. Great way to start my week.

    1. And what should be heartening for writers who aren’t crazy about the idea of marketing (which is like 90% of them!) is that the marketing he does is very smart and targeted and not time-intensive at all. There’ll be more details in the next part tomorrow, but you should see what I mean. Also, being a hell of a writer helps too!

  13. Great interview, Dave. I especially like Michael’s comments on work ethic. I’ve been re-examining mine after bumping into some authors who write with, as they say, “fingers on the keyboard” 8 hours a day. For someone to say they feel lazy at a 3 books/year pace is humbling to say the least.

    So…I’m going to uncheck the “Notify” button and get back to the draft!

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